Sučeljavanje sa zločinima
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  1. #1

    Sučeljavanje sa zločinima

    Pokrećem ovu temu ne da bih ulazili u rasprave o tome ko je kome više zla naneo, padali u vatru međusobnog vređanja i optuživanja, već da bih bacio još jedno svetlo na dešavanja na ovim terenima, kao i da bih skrenuo pažnju da mnogi delovi naše istorije ne treba padnu u zaborav ili da budu ignorisani. Zločin ne može da se opravda drugim zločinom.

    Zato prenosim jedan deo zabranjene istorije.

    The Northern Banat
    "Where the lust for murder raged"


    There were one hundred and twenty Danube Swabian families who lived in Ruskodorf. The remainder of the population was Hungarian. They were all poor people, most them did not own land and hired themselves out as day farm laborers on the large estates, and the two nationalities lived in harmony with one another. After the annexation of this portion of the Banat to the new state of Yugoslavia after the First World War many Slavic colonists were brought from the south and settled here by the Yugoslavian government. The estates of the Hungarian nobles who had left the county were divided up among these new colonists and the Hungarian and Danube Swabian population were not eligible to buy any of it. After the Partisans came to power in the fall of 1944 these colonists wanted to confiscate the homes and property of the Swabians and see to their physical extermination. During the first days of October, there were twenty leading Swabians in the community who were taken by force to nearby Cernje, including four women. Here they were imprisoned in a cellar along with many other Swabians from the area and were brutally abused for several days. On October 27th most of them were shot in the meadows just outside of Cernje where they executed one hundred and seventy-four of them.

    Fourteen Swabian men from Ruskodorf were taken to the camp at Kikinda and seven of them were brutally killed shortly after they arrived. Another group of men were taken to the camp at Julia Major where many of them perished.

    But in Ruskodorf itself there were large portions of the Danube Swabians who were being gruesomely liquidated by the Partisans. On November 5th, 1944 two men and one woman were horrendously slaughtered, the fifty-six year old machinist Matthias Frauenhofer, the forty-three year old landowner Johann Martin and thirty-two year old Maria Rottenbach. After the Partisans inflicted all kinds of cuts to their bodies with knives, they then chopped off of their arms and legs while they were still alive with axes. The walls of the room where these brutal atrocities were committed were splattered with blood. Swabian women were given the task of cleaning up the mess. The limbless bodies were tossed in a basket, loaded on a wagon and taken and buried in the animal cemetery.

    There were ten young women both married and unmarried who were tortured, violated, raped and liquidated by an extermination squad of Partisans made up of eight young Slavic colonists who lived in Ruskodorf who were rabid beasts who committed the atrocity in the presence of other terrified Swabian women in a room of the castle residence of the former Hungarian noble landowner. The five married women, Katharina Kartje, Fanni Hass, Elisabeth Martin, Margarete Frauenhofer and Anna Reff had all of their finger nails torn off by a pair of pliers and then their hands and feet were chopped off with axes and they were raped and tormented until they died. All ten women were buried in the animal cemetery. After this bloodletting the ceiling of the room remained splattered with blood.

    The Danube Swabians who remained were in a local camp in Ruskodorf that was set up for that purpose. On April 18, 1945 they were driven on foot out of the village to the camp in Molidorf. A great portion of them died of hunger there. Today you will find the Slavic colonists living in the homes of the Danube Swabians.

    Selo koje se pominje je Rusko Selo, Cernje je Crnja, selo Molin )Molidorf= više ne postoji.

    Što se tiče ovog teksta, sva ranija saznanja koja sam imao o ovim dešavanjima se poklapaju i zaista nemam sumnje u njegovu istinitost. Ta saznanja sam stekao u razgovorima sa ljudima koji su tada živeli u ovom mestu. Na žalost, ti ljudi sad više nisu među nama i nisam u mogućnosti da dodatno proverim ovu priču.

    Dvorac koji se sada spominje je srušen. Posle rata je ostalo svega par porodica Nemaca, koje su se iselile čim je to bilo moguće. Kolonisti koji se pominju su kolonisti naseljeni u ovom selu posle prvog svetskog rata.

    Još jednom da napomenem: zločin je zločin, ma koje opravdanje za njega smišljeno. Ni jedan zločin ne treba zaboraviti.
    Stvoriću svoj mali raj i u njega primiti one koji su mi već u srcu.

  2. #2

    Odgovor: Sučeljavanje sa zločinima

    Треба причати о злочинима комуниста, што да не.
    За землю родную не на жизнь а на смерть
    Воевал с врагами Володимир князь
    Многая лета
    Многая лета
    Многая лета
    Русской земле

  3. #3

    Odgovor: Sučeljavanje sa zločinima

    Ja koliko shvatam zločine uvek čine zločinci

  4. #4

    Odgovor: Sučeljavanje sa zločinima

    Ne bih pravio razliku medju zlocinima.

    Dodacu jos jedan text.

    Grossbetscherek ~ Betscherek

    Grossbetscherek was the capital of the Yugoslavian Banat. It had a population of thirty-five thousand. The Danube Swabians made up about one third of the inhabitants. The rest of the population consisted of Serbians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Romanians and Bulgarians. The most prosperous landowners were the Danube Swabians. They were also the most industrious and had purchased the most and the best land.

    A local Serbian government was constituted here on the day the Russian Army arrived on October 2, 1944. It was discarded only ten days later. Communist Partisan bands arrived from Syrmien and took over control. On the first day of their coming to power, it was a Tuesday, October 10th the new authorities closed off the western sector of the city early in the morning, effectively cutting off the Danube Swabian population that lived in this section of the city. Armed groups of Partisans, including uniformed women, went from house to house. They checked the credentials of all of the population in this sector of the city, and any man or male youth who was believed to be “German” was driven out of their houses.

    “Are you German?” was the only question that they asked. If the man was, the command that followed consisted of three words. “Chain and shoot!”

    All of those Danube Swabians thus apprehended were subjected to cruel abuse, butted with rifles and dragged off to the Serbian part of the city. They arrested about three hundred men in this way. They were assembled on Takovska Street. In the yard of one of the houses they were forced to take off their clothes. In groups of ten they were driven out into the streets. There was a long brick wall on one side of the street and the men had to kneel in front of the wall and were shot in the nape of the neck. The Partisans brought wagons and dumped the bodies into them. They had had a great pit dug on the site of the shooting range of the former Hungarian military installation from the First World War located in the east end of the city. All three hundred dead were dumped there. Among the victims was one fourteen year old boy. A few days later, his father and brother-in-law were also shot. A few days later and following, most of the Danube Swabians were driven out of their homes. They were taken to various camps. One of them was a former old mill in the north end of the city. But thousands of Danube Swabians from the vicinity were also forced into the “mill” camp. There were also sixty German prisoners of war, and hundreds of Danube Swabian men, women and children from the Romanian Banat who had fled westward from the advancing Russian Army, but were unable to continue on their trek from here and were imprisoned with the Swabians of Betscherek.

    At the entrance into the mill there was a small room. The Partisans set it up as a torture chamber. Every night, whenever the Partisans felt the urge to shed Swabian blood they would round up individuals or groups and take them to this room. In the first night alone they slaughtered twenty-five men, one after another. At first they knocked out their teeth, used their rifle butts on their backs around their kidneys, smashed and shattered their shins with logs, threw them to the ground, jumped with all their might on their stomachs, broke their ribs and let them die slowly. If they were still alive they bashed in their heads with their rifles or pieces of lumber. The louder the victims screamed the Partisans sang louder and played their harmonicas and accordions to drown out the noise of their pain afflicted victims.

    The sixty German prisoners of war imprisoned with the Danube Swabians were also subject to the same fate, and except for twenty-six men were killed by the Partisans. In addition most of the men among the Danube Swabian refugees from Romania met their deaths at the hands of the Partisans including a very young boy from Detta, in the full knowledge of the fact that they were not Yugoslavian citizens. The murder of the child Minges Walter was orchestrated by the Partisans in the courtyard that was set up like a circus ring and all of the inmates of the camp, especially the women, some four hundred persons in all had to witness and watch how Swabian children were liquidated.

    Very often there were mass shootings in this camp consisting of groups of up to one hundred fifty men and women, and sometimes even more. Those who were chosen for execution were often the owners of the homes and possessions taken over by the Partisans. The victims were always handpicked. In the camp courtyard, once chosen they had to step forward and were then bound to one another by wire and then were brutally beaten by the Partisans. They were driven on foot to the shooting range and were forced to dig a hug hole. On other occasions other inmates had dug the grave a few days earlier. They had to undress and ten to twenty naked persons had to walk to the edge of the pit, or down into the grave and were then shot. Anyone who resisted was beaten or stabbed to death with a bayonet. The graves afterwards were covered with only a bit of earth to hide them from sight. The Partisans took the clothes away in a wagon and traded them in the city or wore them themselves with great pride all around town.

    The first official shootings took place on October 12, 1944 when seventy-five Danube Swabian civilians were taken out of the camp and were killed. On October 14th another shooting took place with as many victims. It went on like this every other day. On October 20th a group of seventy men from Grossbetscherek were shot. On October 29th in two separate actions the Partisans shot one hundred and fifty-four more men.

    On another day all of the camp inmates had to report for roll call. All of these who had gone one to high school were to step forward. They were promised lighter work. Those who reported had no idea that anything bad could come of it. The sixty men were bound with wire, whipped, beaten, stripped naked and shot.

    In the face of all of the torture he had endured one young Swabian who was terrified of what more was to come decided on suicide. On the way home from doing forced labor all day he jumped off of the bridge across the Bega River and drowned right away. It was in the middle of winter. The Partisans used this to good effect. As soon as the slave laborers entered the camp, they chose thirty of the men to shoot as punishment for the suicide.

    On November 17th, 1944 the Partisans carried out a gruesome atrocity involving the killing of sixty ill persons. On that day all those who were sick or unable to work were to report to the “hospital” as quickly as possible. Those unable to walk were separated from the others and locked in a room. In the night they were ordered to take off their clothes and in groups of ten they were driven out into the camp courtyard. There they were awaited by a large group of Partisans in the darkness who slugged them on their heads with their shovels. Italian prisoners of war had to take the dead beaten bodies and toss them into a wagon and take the wagon out of the camp and bury them. The next day the courtyard was still splattered with blood.

    The killing of the sick became a regular feature of the life of the camp. But these actions were always in groups. November 25, 1944 there were fifty-four who were killed. Another time it was seventy, while another time there were only thirty-five and so on.

    But a large number of inmates in the camp met death individually. On the night of November 29, 1944 there was one such case because the man was eighty-five and could not do heavy work and was taken from his quarters out into the courtyard and murdered by the Partisans. He was buried in the courtyard in a grave the old man had to dig himself. Victims like him were not always dead but badly wounded when the Partisans got through with them and were buried alive even when the victim begged them to shoot him. On one occasion a Swabian man had been part of a mass shooting and was only wounded but thrown into the grave with the dead. During the night he came back to consciousness and crawled out of the shallowly covered grave and made his way to the edge of the mass grave. He was stark naked. He called out to a passerby to help him. The man in turn informed the camp commander instead. He immediately sent a squad of Partisans who brutally murdered the badly wounded man.

    Large groups of inmates from the Grossbetscherek camp were sent to do forced labor outside of the camp. Even in these situations there were many of them who were beaten or shot to death by the Partisans while on these labor details. On May 20, 1945 seventy-five men for example were sent to the rock quarries in Beotschin in Syrmien who were accompanied by a large number of heavily armed Partisans. The march was accompanied by constant beatings and abuse. On turning over their prisoners to the officials at the Beotschin quarry where they were to work, they reported that twenty of them were totally incapable of work due to the injuries suffered by them on the march. All of them soon died after their arrival.

    If Partisans in other villages had the desire to murder some Swabians they could order some from the camp in Grossbetscherek or have them delivered to them. They were gladly sent on the part of the camp officials. On October 25, 1944 the Partisans in the Serbian villages of Melentzi and Baschaid were holding a special celebration. The high point of the festival was to be the public massacre of some Danube Swabians. For that purpose thirty Danube Swabians from the Grossbetscherek camp were sent to the festival. There they were programmatically shot and beaten to death at the festival.

    On December 27, 1944 the commander of the Grossbetscherek camp sent thirty-nine sick persons, thirty-five men and four women by wagon to Ernsthausen. They were all slaughtered in gruesome ways as the high point of a Partisan celebration.

    An escapee from the camp in Betscherek reports:

    “I was familiar with the internal operations of the camp. I had to inform the commander of the camp of the number of inmates every evening. Because of that I can realistically estimate that in the winter of 1944/1945 more than four thousand persons simply “disappeared” who were listed in the camp log as having died of typhus. In truth, like the gravediggers reported to me, the dead were beaten or shot to death. I saw the entries myself. The old school teacher Koller from Elemir was thrashed three times in our room one night for no apparent reason. I counted two hundred and eighty-five gashes. The old man did not make a sound. In the morning he was dead. One of the favorite methods of abuse by the women Partisans was to pull away at people’s tongues. Our own women who were kept in another building had all of their hair shaven off, even in terms of their private parts. Our own barbers had to do it. Many women were raped, including my own daughter…

    Life in the Betscherek camp was worse than death could possibly be.

    Wake-up call was at 3:00 am. The camp was divided into numerous groups. After being awakened the thrashings and ridicule began. The men had to go out into the camp courtyard with their upper torso naked while it was still dark to do “free sport activities”. There was a well in the yard with a wooden trough attached to it. Water collected from the frequent rain, and the water had not been run off and because the yard was packed with so many people it was usually a sea of mud. With curses and swearing the early morning “sport” began with the Partisan guards using rubber hoses and clubs on the men. These half starved men had the wind knocked out of them and then had to walk around in the cold dampness of late autumn for half to a full hour in the dark, then forced to kneel, lie down and then crawl in the mud. Only when the “free sport” was ended did they allow the mud encrusted people—there were seventeen thousand men, women and children—to use the wash trough. But because there were so many people most could not even get close to it to make themselves wet. There was no such thing as soap.

    On some occasions when the inmates were sprawled in the mud the Partisans would begin to “dance” on their bodies. A band of musicians would accompany them to drown out the screams. During the dance they used clubs and whips on the people as well as wearing heavy boots with cleats. This usually lasted for half an hour. Five to ten people would be left dead in the mud. After the “dance of death” everyone was driven back into their quarters, but because it was not yet dawn the Partisans had to fill in their time, so that the inmates were thrashed and tortured by the guards until 5:30 am.

    Then came breakfast: a thin watery soup and fifty grams of bread. After breakfast the groups were sent out to work. There were various work groups. The work at the railway stations and boat yards was hard labor, as was the task to empty and load goods at the warehouses. They worked without stop from 6:00am to 6:00pm. Often there was no food at noon. At 6:00pm they were marched back to the camp and often some of them just simply could not go on. These victims would be forced to rise and continue with beatings, whippings and kicks to vulnerable parts of their bodies. If they could not get up, others would have to drag them, when they themselves could hardly go on as it was. As they entered the camp the guards and sentries who had rested all day for this, now once again got into the act and welcomed them with beatings and all kinds of physical abuse. The inmates were given their rations of their way to their quarters, watery soup and fifty grams of bread. After supper there was no further official work. They cowered in their so-called beds, only a very few managed to sleep, because the guards entered the barracks, and called the names of various prisoners and in front of all of the other prisoners they beat and abused them. Very often they thrashed those who were asleep for no reason and with no warning. During these evening hours the sentries were usually drunk and carried out two or three roll calls. All of the prisoners had to stand. The roll call consisted of a smack to the head or face or a jab against the chest of every tenth prisoner. Often some prisoners were taken into the punishment cell and were beaten and tortured for hours. The local Serbian civilian population was also given a free hand and could have access to the camp to beat and punish the Swabian inmates. Near the end of 1945 the surviving children and the elderly Swabians from Betscherek and the surrounding vicinity were taken to the larger concentration camp at Rudolfsgnad on the Tisza River.

    The concentration camp at Betscherek was closed and dismantled on May 22, 1947 when only a small number of prisoners had survived and were still able to work. These survivors were first taken to St. Georgen and from there they were sent as slave laborers to the Serbian coal mines and to work on collective farms. But in Betscherek not a single Danube Swabian lived in any of their former homes. Their houses were now occupied by Slavic colonists and the families of the locally stationed Partisan units.

    Dr. Wilhelm Neuner who had once been a member of parliament in Belgrade reports:

    “These Communist Partisans carried out mass shootings from the very first days of their Military dictatorship and ruled throughout the whole country. In the capital city of Grossbetscherek, in which twelve thousand Danube Swabians lived, the western sector of the city was cut off from the rest of the city and this is where the vast majority of the Swabian inhabitants who were mostly farmers lived. They broke into every home and liquidated all of the men they could find. Only a small portion of the men was left unmolested. I myself was led away to be executed. But only by a fortunate set of circumstances I was able to get away. But my father-in-law and five other relatives all of whom were farmers were taken and shot with countless others. In the whole of the Banat, during these first days of Partisan rule the total number of Danube Swabian civilian victims who were killed in mass shootings and liquidations numbered close to ten thousand persons, including both men and women.”
    Stvoriću svoj mali raj i u njega primiti one koji su mi već u srcu.

  5. #5

    Odgovor: Sučeljavanje sa zločinima

    Hans Diewald from Betscherek writes:

    “On October 10th the so-called German quarter of the city was blockaded by armed Partisans where the majority of the Swabians lived. The Partisans went through the German quarter with a fine tooth comb and dragged off all of the Swabian men from their homes. They were bound to one another in groups under heavy guard and led to the former Honved (Hungarian National Army) barracks. Other Partisan units began to arrest Hungarians and Swabian women as well and brought them to the barracks. The women and the Hungarians were later released after several hours of imprisonment. Some two hundred and fifty Swabian men were shot that day including youngsters from thirteen to seventeen years of age.

    On October 12th the German Quarter was once again blockaded only this time the Partisans arrived at 5:00am because during the first blockade at 8:00 am on the 10th many of the men were not at home, but had been in the city on various errands or were out working in their fields or had gone to a nearby village for some purpose. During this second blockade they captured almost all of the Swabian men including myself. All of us were taken to the so-called concentration camp a former jail, which had originally been a mill and were locked up in there.

    In the following days newly arrested Swabian men arrived each day at the camp. The men were caught in groups, had been taken off of the streets or taken from their homes. Day after day Swabians were delivered to the camp. By November all of the Swabian men were in the camp.

    The women of the city, especially the Danube Swabians were the victims of rape and sexual violation by the Russian troops. The number of rape victims increased daily. The Serbs sent the Russian soldiers to the Swabian houses where there were women. A friend of mine, sixteen year old Otto Tarillion told me that he was forced to watch while his mother was being raped repeatedly, while one soldier held a loaded gun aimed at him.

    On October 12th the Swabians from the surrounding vicinity were brought to the camp in Betscherek from Rudolfsgnad, Perles, Sartscha, Modosch and Stefansfeld. At the end of the week, on Friday or Saturday, the mass shootings began. The first mass shooting took place on October 10th. At that time two hundred and fifty men were shot. The second shooting to place on October 20th and about two hundred persons were shot at that time. The third shootings took place on October 23rd with thirty victims and the fourth on October 18th involving one hundred and fifty-two persons.

    Before the shooting took place on October 23rd it was announced that all lawyers and professors were to report. Because only a few did so, the Partisans threatened to shoot every tenth man. As a result twenty-three men reported including merchants and officials that also included thirteen to seventeen year old high school students. On October 19th at 7:00am several of my friends and I were taken to the execution place in the forest. We were ordered to dig a mass grave. As we did our work we were all convinced that we would be shot. But as it turned out it was meant for the two hundred who were executed on October 20th.

    In the camp we were awakened at 2:00 or 2:30am in the morning. We had to perform “free sports”. We were driven on foot through the camp and every time we passed a Partisan sentry we were beaten or thrashed, but that was also true while we ate or worked as well. We worked on bridge construction and erecting silos. We also had to load food stuffs and provisions to be sent to the Russian troops. The Partisans who were our guards were seventeen to twenty years of age. These were the ones who carried out the mass shootings But, there were also women Partisans (often teenage girls) who participated in the execution squads. Italian prisoners were often called upon to bury the victims of the shootings. An Italian told me that often people who were badly wounded were thrown into the mass grave. He often heard their groans as he had to throw earth upon them and buried them alive.

    Each day in the camp we were fed twice. In the morning there was clear soup and in the evening pea soup. We received a small piece of bread in the morning and evening. In November of 1944 all of the Swabians in the Banat were confined in camps. There were forced labor camps in Lazarfeld, Kathreinfeld, Klek and Ernsthausen. Before the entry of the Russian troops Betscherek had approximately fifteen thousand Danube Swabian inhabitants, but some eight thousand of them had fled with the retreating German army.

    I was in the camp to the end of February or the beginning of March 1945. Then I was sent to the camp hospital to work. It went much better for me there. I had better rations, but I had to work under constant guard. At the end of May I was back in the camp and from there I went to work at the silos. While working there I escaped. It was on September 7, 1945. I first fled over the border into Romania. I worked there for some farmers. On December 27th I returned to Betscherek by way of Johannisfeld der Bega. I hid out at my uncle’s who was a Serb.

    At the end of November 1944 there were forty-nine sick inmates in the Betscherek camp who were promised they were going to rehabilitation but were taken to Ernsthausen instead. They were marched off early in the morning under heavy guard and remained under guard on their arrival in Ernsthausen. The commander of the camp there was a Serb from St. Georgen. He recognized the young nineteen year old Georg Saal from St. Georgen. On the order of the commander young Saal was tied to a stake in the dung pile that was set on fire and Saal was burned to death. The remaining forty-eight others from Betscherek were beaten with clubs, whips, pipes and stabbed with knives and butchered by the Partisans. Later one could see the results of their work along the street. Brains were splattered on walls, and streams of blood filled the street. A young girl from Ernsthausen witnessed this and told me about it. Her family name was Kramer I had met her in Johannisfeld in Romania.

    On January 1, 1946 I left Betscherk and returned to Romania again. I left there on January 10th for Hungary. I arrived in Vienna on January 17th.”

    Michael Kristof a high school student recalls:

    “The Russians moved into Betscherek on Monday, the 2nd of October, 1944 and with them came the Tito Partisans. The behaviour of the Russians was in some measure bearable. They took what they wanted and occupied themselves with raping women. In the city of Betscherek the first Danube Swabians were arrested and imprisoned in a camp on Ocotber 5th. At first it was the Swabians from Betscherek who were on the agenda of the Partisans, but there were also groups of Danube Swabians from the surrounding communities who were also brought here.

    The numbers of prisoners who were brought to Betscherek were at the behest of the local Serb and Partisan leaders. As an example, the commander at Betscherek requested sixty men from Lazarfeld.

    The local commander there, a local Serb, had the courage, to send only half of the men he was ordered to send for which the commander in Betscherek was more than satisfied. Of these thirty who were sent, fourteen of them were shot. Those Swabians who were not delivered to the camps remained in their community, and then another group was taken to the camp. A portion of them being sent to Betscherek at Christmas were sent to Russia instead. All of the rest came to the camp in April 1945 as the total Swabian population was imprisoned in the camp.

    It was at night when it was worste in the camp, with the hearings and selections and the shootings. Those selected for the shootings at first were those who were well dressed, were physically strong or who through sickness were too weak to do any work. There were not real rules or a pattern to the selections, it was a matter of filling the quota that had been set. Those who were chosen were taken to a separate room, where they had to undress and were then tied to one another with wire in groups of four and taken to the old military firing range on the outskirts of Betscherek to be shot. None of the Partisans had any measure of education and were determined to exterminate the “intelligentsia” of the Danube Swabians. They would ask, Who happens to be a doctor? A physician? Druggist? Merchant? Teacher? And so on. People who had these professions were to report for lighter work because they were not suited for hard heavy work. This trick often worked and many men fell victim to it.

    Records were kept at the camp but the shootings in the protocols were simply identified as “died” after the person’s name along with the date. This was a function of the camp administration office and carried out by Swabian inmates and they made the entries in the book of protocols under the direction of the Partisans. I was assigned to the office for one week in mid-February 1945, but then the political commissar a woman Partisan had me removed. But during that week I leafed through this book of protocols because I wanted to find out what had happened to my friends and family members, where they were, if they were still alive or if they had been sent to another camp, or had been shot or had died. My own number in this book of protocols was 3214. Through this glimpse in the book of protocols I learned that those I had been searching for who were well known to me and those of whom I had heard had all been shot and had simply “died” according to the recorder.

    From this glimpse into the book of protocols it was obvious that very many people who were listed as having died had in fact been executed and shot. For instance, on October 28, 1944 one hundred and fifty inmates had been shot, but in the protocol each one was listed as having simply died. This was also true on other days in terms of smaller groups such as the thirty who were shot previously to that. The shootings were always justified as reprisals. Each day we had to assemble, sometimes more often and stand in the yard in the three columns. We never knew the reason beforehand. Sometimes it dealt with sending some of us to another community to work or some kind of detail the Partisans had in mind for us. At such assemblies there were individuals chosen for the next shooting, and we would be told it was done “in reprisal”.

    Through discussion with others in other camps I learned later that these shootings also took place at that time for the same reason, which indicates that the central leadership of the Partisans had set it in motion everywhere.

    On Tuesday October 10th 1944 the German quarter of Betscherek was surrounded by the Partisans. Groups of Partisans went from house to house, searched them and asked each person for their Legitimation (an official document of identity). These documents were in both German and Serbian, that everyone had to have in which the nationality of the individual was stipulated which had been filled out during the German occupation.

    All of the Swabian men, who were not yet in the camp and were found at home were led together in one of the side streets of the Market Place and mowed down by machine gun fire. An eye witness shared this with me, who had been saved from the massacre by a Serb whom he had befriended for years and indicated that the victims had to undress their upper torsos, kneel down and where then shot.

    The treatment the inmates received in the camp were as follows: Reception into the camp was mostly by hefty kicks, boxing their ears and body punches. Few were able to escape this. Then the man was robbed of everything and anything of value and usually all he had left was the clothes he wore. If he had good footwear of clothing it was either taken from him or it became a reason for him to be selected for a shooting. It was assumed the man was rich and capitalist who needed to be liquidated. With reception completed the inmate was then led to his quarters.

    The cental camp at Betscherek was a burned down mill, two stories high. A second camp was erected in November to accommodate the greater portion of the civilian population as women now were also imprisoned and interned.

    In the three large rooms filled with machine parts the inmates were packed together in two story high bunks. In each room there were about three hundred men accommodated, so that in all there were up to two thousand in the camp at all times. In the smaller rooms in the mill were the women and children and the so-called ambulance, kitchen, storage area and office, and one room four the privileged inmates who worked in the kitchen and office or in other places in the camp.

    No one was allowed outside of the room at night. Because so many of them had dysentery, in each of the machine rooms there were two large barrels, and two people had to watch out that no spills took place. On one occasion, all of the inmates had dysentery and the barrels overflowed and the two people who were called upon to make sure this did not happen were forced to lick it up in the morning for allowing it to happen.

    At night when the people were exhausted and tired coming from work began the uncertainty whether one would live through the night or not in the face of the interrogations, tortures, beatings that always occurred at night. For that reason the inmates in spite of their bodily weakness went to work in the morning with a sense of relief just to get out of the “nut house” in which they lived. But with feelings of despair they returned once again in the evening to face it all over again.

    On entering or leaving the camp there were always Partisans on the stockade around the courtyard standing on the stairs with ox hide belts with which they lit into in the inmates passing by them. The inmates called this their normal dues.

    Shootings occurred for all kinds unreasonable things. The following is an example. A tradesman from Betscherek who had to work privately in the city, usually came home later from his workplace by the time his comrades were all asleep. Not wanting to awaken them from sleep, he lit a match in order to find his spot on the upper bunk. A Partisan on the street outside noticed this light and came up to the room and asked, who had lit a match. The tradesman acknowledged that he had and was made to come down off of his bunk and lie down on his stomach on the floor and the Partisan shot him in the nape of his neck right there in the room. I witnessed this myself because I was in that room.

    The report of a friend of Michael Kristof who wishes to remain anonymous:

    “I come from Grossbetscherek, Banat, Yugoslavia and on 04.10.1944 I was placed in the central camp in Grossbetscherek. At that time we were only a few men in the camp. I was placed in room number three. In the afternoons I had to gather the horse manure in my hands and clean up the horse and stall. In the night of October 4/5 I was awakened and called out to the yard and was forced to press my face up against the wall and was beaten and my head was banged against the wall, so that the bones in my nose were broken.

    Some time later they brought two of my comrades, Anton Hufnagel and I do not want to disclose the name of the other for good reasons. Anton Hufnagel had been informed he had to go down into the courtyard. He was so badly beaten that he was in a mental fog and he repeated all of the rude names that Partisans flung at him, and as a result they kept hitting him with their rifle butts. After we were beaten and abused so badly we were led to the police in the city in a farmer’s wagon. There we met other Swabian men from the city that we knew.

    Hufnagel Anton was immediately taken into a room where his torture and mistreatment would continue, while a radio blared, harmonicas were playing along with violins so that his cries and screams could not be heard outside. After a short period of time I was brought into the room. I found Hufnagel lying on the floor totally motionless. Now I had to completely undress. Me feet were tied together and my hands were tied behind my back. In this way I had to stand on a stool. I was whipped with ox hide belts by the Partisans until I fainted. My flesh hung like pieces of rags from my body they poured cold water from a pail all over me. As I came to I had to stand on the stool again. At first I knelt on the stool and then I tried to stand up as my feet were still tied to one another.

    The thrashing went into motion once more until I fainted and collapsed once again. Cold water was poured all over me once again and then they rubbed salt into my wounds and I just lay there in my pain. Now our third comrade came into the room he was put through the same torture I had endured. During his torture, the hairs on my chest and between my legs were burned off by apply a burning kerosene soaked rag that they threw at me. In my unconsciousness I felt the burning searing pain and saw the burning rags on me and turned on my side, so that the burning rag fell off of my chest onto my arm and burned my left arm.

    In the meanwhile Anton Hufnagel was beaten to death with their rifle butts. Later worms infested my wounds that I healed through rubbing my own urine into my wounds for months, and also in Russia I did the same, because I was determined not to report sick because that would have meant that I would be shot. This torment lasted two to three hours. Afterwards our hands and feet were freed and we had to get dressed, and then our hands and feet were bound again, but in such a way that our hands were behind our backs tied to our feet with a rope. We were trussed up like that for around eighteen hours until midnight with our open wounds that had been rubbed with salt, without being able to move to alleviate the terrible pain.

    Around midnight our feet were untied and the three of us without Anton Hufnagel who was now dead were lead out of the room and had to climb on board a wagon with our hands still bound and were taken to the courtyard and headquarters of the Secret Police and handed over to them. On arriving inside the three of us were tossed into a cell together. Every night we were interrogated and beaten for several weeks. For food we received two pieces of bread daily and some water. Once a week we were shaved but it was hardly a pleasant experience. After about three weeks all three of us were taken back to the central camp because they could not find prove we had done anything wrong that was worthy of further punishment.

    At the Secret Police headquarters we were witnesses of the abuse of a woman named Zita by the Partisans and saw what happened to her through the window of our cell. We saw how she had to dance naked on a table and then lie down on the table and part her legs for the Partisans who stuck the barrel of a revolver into her vagina and made her stand up and keep it inside of her. She was then shot. Through the window we also saw a young man of about twenty-eight years, whom none of us knew, whose penis they cut off while he was still alive and stuffed it into his mouth. What happened to him after that we have no idea. On being returned to central camp we were once again interrogated and beaten and tortured and we were constantly threatened with shooting. I was put in a single cell in which three men lay unconscious. My teeth were knocked in by the commander’s revolver and I was forced to swallow them, and the injuries I sustained killed the nerves. One night we were locked into a very small cell for twelve hours so that none of us could find rest or move about and it became harder and harder for us to breathe and we were afraid of suffocation and we could not attempt to even fall down to find release because we were packed so tightly against each other.

    After this night we were divided up in various cells. After six days we were locked into a room with about thirty men, given a piece of bread and water and were not allowed to the leave the room. We had to relieve ourselves in a barrel.

    After eight days we were driven on foot to do labor. We had to get up at 4:00am. Then we received some warm soup and now a larger piece of bread and when we returned from work in the evening we received another piece of bread and warm soup. During the three weeks that my companions and I had been in the Secret Police prison and later imprisoned in the various cells in the central camp many men had been shot. On December 28th 1944 I was taken along in the large transport of about one thousand eight hundred persons of which the vast majority were young women both married and single and sent to Russia. There were no more than three hundred men among them. In Russia I worked mostly in the coal mines until my release in 1949.”
    Stvoriću svoj mali raj i u njega primiti one koji su mi već u srcu.

  6. #6

    Odgovor: Sučeljavanje sa zločinima

    Занимљива тема, али се поставља питање ко то треба да се суочи и са чијим злочинима?

    Протеривање Немаца су вршиле власти нове Југославије
    , као што су сами Немци бежали пред Црвеном армијом, која је овде стигла пре партизана. Овде се заборавља да нису протеривани само Немци из Баната, већ из Славоније и Словеније (Марибор је био већински немачки град) такође.

    Поред Немаца, извршено је етничко чишћење практично свих Италијана из Далмације, који су ту живели знатно дуже од Немаца. То није све, него над италијанским цивилима су вршени брутални злочини:

    Foibe killings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Онда се поставља питање, ко је ту одговоран?
    Ко је имао апсолутну власт и био крајња инстанца у тој новој држави? Одговор је:

    Али чекај мало...зар није исти идол оних који се позивају на "мултикултуралност"?
    Зар "мултикултурна" и "толерантна" покрајина не започиње своје постојање етничким чишћењем?
    Чак се сећам (из једног документарца), када су тада још живи припадници Титове врхушке причали да су планирали да етнички очисте и све Мађаре, али се од тога одустало због будућих односа СФРЈ и Мађарске.

    Зар сучељавање са тим наведеним злочинима треба да буде првенствени задатак оних који ламентирају за Титом и СФРЈ?

    Хтео бих да напоменем да су иста етничка чишћења (посебно Немаца) рађена у Чехословачкој (Бенешови декрети), Пољској (око 3 милиона Немаца протерано или поубијано), СССР (расељавање разних народа оптужених за колаборацију), па чак у у Румунији (Бараганска депортација и расељавање Срба, Мађара и др.) у доба Чаушескуа.

    Додуше, не знам шта су Италијани толико згрешили властима СФРЈ, када су чинили најмање злочина током рата од свих зараћених снага.

    На пример, Хрвати, који су масовно учествовали у фашистичким формацијама (током 1945 било их је још око 150.000 у армији НДХ) су се не само извукли, него су добили територијална проширења на рачун Италије (Истра и Кварнер).

    Такође и муслимани, који су масовно учествовали у фашистичким формацијама, чак и по сведочењу комунистичких функционера.

  7. #7

    Odgovor: Sučeljavanje sa zločinima

    Mi koji ovde živimo treba da se suočimo sa tim.
    Zašto? Zato što 99% ljudi ni ne zna šta se dešavalo.
    Nema ih u udžbenicima, ne pominju se, oni koji znaju, ćute.
    Znam i za partizanske trojke za likvidacije, i četničke trojke koje su sekle žive ljude testerom na pola,... Ne interesuje me ideologija, zločinci, već žrtve. I da se o tome ćuti.
    Treba da se suočimo sa tim da su ljudi spremni i sposobni da rade takve zločine (ne pričam o ideologiji), i da se to ponavlja, još od pamtiveka, turskih vremena, balkanskih ratova, Prvog, Drugog Svetskog, pa sve do ovih skorašnjih sukoba. Šta je to u čoveku što ga tera da bude gori od bilo kakve zveri. Da parafraziram reči jednog četnika koji mi je objašnjavao kako je streljao zarobljenike u Slavoniji zato što nisu znali šta da rade sa njima: Metak je za čoveka. Ne mogu da koljem, ali mogu da ubijem.
    E, pa ja ne mogu da ubijem, ako time ne branim nečiji život. Za zabranu sam smrtne kazne, ne zato što je niko ne zaslužuje, već zato što neko treba da je izvrši.

    A nigde nisam rekao da su se dešavala samo ovde. Ali ja ovde živim i normalno je da me se tiče mnogo više nego Dalmacija, Maribor, Poljskoj,.. i sl.
    Ima dosta tekstova, ako bude zainteresovanih, možda okačim još.
    Stvoriću svoj mali raj i u njega primiti one koji su mi već u srcu.

  8. #8

    Odgovor: Sučeljavanje sa zločinima

    Citat Sunny kaže: Pogledaj poruku
    A nigde nisam rekao da su se dešavala samo ovde. Ali ja ovde živim i normalno je da me se tiče mnogo više nego Dalmacija, Maribor, Poljskoj,.. i sl.
    Ima dosta tekstova, ako bude zainteresovanih, možda okačim još.
    Злочини које спомињеш, а који су се дешавали код нас не могу се одвојити из општег контекста рата у Југославији и политике њеног комунистичког руководства. Немци су протеривани у пакету са територије целе тадашње Југославије, а одлуке о етничким чишћењима су доношене на државном нивоу. Србија тад није била држава, а Југославије више нема. Над Италијанима, као што сам рекао, су се чинили много суровији злочини.

    Током тих акција, што се тиче покрајине, Срем је третиран другачије од Бачке и Баната, где је важила директна војна управа.

    Citat Sunny kaže: Pogledaj poruku
    Da parafraziram reči jednog četnika koji mi je objašnjavao kako je streljao zarobljenike u Slavoniji zato što nisu znali šta da rade sa njima: Metak je za čoveka. Ne mogu da koljem, ali mogu da ubijem.
    E, pa ja ne mogu da ubijem, ako time ne branim nečiji život.
    Какав четник? О чему причаш? Позивао си се на други светски рат и злочине над немачким цивилима. Већ сам рекао да првенствену одговорност и суочавање са тим злочинима треба да носе симпатизери и баштиници НОП-а и Јосипа Броза, јер су исти те злочине починили.

    Citat Sunny kaže: Pogledaj poruku
    Mi koji ovde živimo treba da se suočimo sa tim.
    Zašto? Zato što 99% ljudi ni ne zna šta se dešavalo.
    Колико ја знам 99% људи је овде свесно да су Немци протеривани, осим оних који су већину живота провели испод камена.

  9. #9

    Odgovor: Sučeljavanje sa zločinima

    Што се тиче "сучељавања" са злочинима над фолксдојчерима и Мађарима после 2ср, примећујем да је то одавно присутно међу припадницима мађарске националне мањине и следбеницима Чанкове и сличних ЛДП идеологија. При томе не кажем да је то проблем, тј. да због тога не треба причати о тим злочинима, само сумњам да све то има политичку позадину. Рецимо, о осталим злочинима комуниста, нпр. над Србима, се не прича. Штавише, чуо сам једног од лудака из НВО сектора који је критиковао Наташу Кандић да говори да треба признати злочине и са "наше стране", односно Брозове! Он и дан данас живи у свету у ком ратују партизани и четници...

    Više desetina skeleta žrtava komunističkog terora nađeno u krugu „Fijata“

    V.Z. Cvijić | 11. 12. 2011. - 07:00h | Foto: N. Raus-Arhiva
    Kragujevac - Početak ekshumacija tajne masovne grobnice u krugu fabrike „Fijat“ u Kragujevcu potvrdio je sumnje da se tamo nalazi više destina zemnih ostatka žrtava koje su bez suđenja ubile komunističke vlasti posle Drugog svetskog rata.

    - Do sada je otkriveno više desetina skeleta i pojedinačnih ostataka na lokaciji parkirališta kod nekadašnje zgrade „Energetike“, na samom kraju fabričkog kruga „Fijata“. Veličina grobnice je otprilike 10 puta 15 metara. Šezdesetih, prilikom širenja fabričkog kruga „Zastave“, na ovom mestu sagrađen je parking, iako se znalo za masovnu grobnicu. Tada je oštećen površinski sloj grobnice, pa se na njenom početku nalaze samo delovi skeleta, dok su na većoj dubini kompletni skeleti - kaže za „Blic“ istoričar Srđan Cvetković, sekretar Komisije za tajne grobnice.

    On napominje da sumnje da su u pitanju žrtve koje su ubile partizanske jedinice potvrđuje i to da je nakon uklanjanja sloja zemlje u dubini oko metar istraživački tim Instituta za sudsku medicinu otkrio gomilu nedogorelih sveća.

    - To je potvrdilo izjave pojedinih svedoka da su se ovde godinama posle rata okupljali potomci streljanih i tu palili sveće. Žrtve su, prema dosadašnjim nalazima, ubijane na tom mestu i nije bilo seljenja, jer su nađene i čaure metaka - kaže istoričar Cvetković.

    Istražni sudija Višeg suda u Kragujevcu Zorice Đurić naredila je obustavljanje građevinskih radova oko grobnice.
    За землю родную не на жизнь а на смерть
    Воевал с врагами Володимир князь
    Многая лета
    Многая лета
    Многая лета
    Русской земле

  10. #10

    Odgovor: Sučeljavanje sa zločinima

    Zbirka dokumenata o zločinima u Drugom svetskom ratu
    U Sloveniji partizani bez suda streljali 100.000 ljudi
    Autor: Vuk Z. Cvijić | 27.09.2009. - 00:01

    Komisija Vlade Slovenije sastavljena od forenzičara, antropologa i istoričara, pripadnika kriminalističke policije, nedavno je izdala zbornik svog rada u poslednjih nekoliko godina u kome se konstatuje da je otkrivena 581 masovna grobnica, i procenjuje se da u njima ima oko 100.000 tela žrtava, koje su streljale partizanske jedinice. Inače, slovenački istoričari su u arhivama pronašli samo 281 presudu na smrt za period od 1945. do 1952. u Sloveniji. Utvrđeno je i da su ti sudski procesi bili montirani.

    - Britanci su polovinom maja 1945. izručili partizanima sve koji su se njima predali, oko 200.000 ljudi. Polovina tih ljudi je streljana i zato ima mnogo masovnih grobnica u Sloveniji. Bilo je dosta civila, dece i žena, ali najviše pripadnika raznih vojnih formacija. Među njima je dosta pripadnika kvislinških formacija, ali i pripadnika drugih olobodilačkih pokreta. U Sloveniji su njihovi četnici, tačnije Plave garde koja je dejstvovala pod komandom đenerala Dragoljuba Draže Mihailovića, komandanta Kraljevske Jugoslovenske vojske u otadžbini, rehabilitovani još 1992, kao i neki drugi pokreti, poput Bele grade koja se borila za nezavisnost Slovenije – kaže za „Blic“ isoričar Srđan Cvetković.
    Predsednik Komisije slovenačke vlade za otkrivanje masovnih grobnica i urednik izdatog zbornika, istoričar Jože Dežman, navodi da je identitet žrtava vrlo teško utvrditi, jer se spiskovi i podaci o zlodelima i žrtvama još uvek kriju, i to u većini slučajeva u arhivama DB u Beogradu, dok su mnogi odavno uništeni.
    Istoričari iz Srbije i Slovenije utvrdili su da su ove zločine neposredno počinile uglavnom partizanske jedinice iz BiH , Like i Korduna. Naređenje za ubijanje stiglo je iz vrha NBO od Josipa Broza, preko Aleksandra Rankovića, koji je bio šef Ozne. Od značajnih rukovodioca Komunističke partije, koji su ujedno bili partizanski komandanti, na terenu u Sloveniji bili su Milka Planinc, Mitija Ribičić i Petar Drapšin. U Sloveniji je zbog zločina bio pokrenut sudski postupak protiv Ribičića.
    Istoričar Cvetković podseća da se o ovim zločinima nije samo ćutalo, nego su dugo i smišljeno prikrivani u bivšoj Jugoslaviji. On navodi da je slovenački advokat Franc Niklavčić osuđen 1976. zbog pominjanja streljnja. O prikrivanju svedoči i pronađena pisana naredba komunističkog ministra unutrašnjih poslova Slovenije o “nužnosti uništenja grobnica pobijenih izdajnika”. Međutim, tokom dvedesetih godina i sami pripadnici partizanskih jedinica počeli su javno da govore o ovim zločinima. Tako je Sima Dubajić, tada partizanski oficir, priznao kako je njegova jedinica, streljala bez odluke suda po naređenju komande. On je naveo da su streljanja obavljena ispred otkopanih jama, a kada bi žrtve upale, unutra bacane su bombe. Dubajić se tada javno pokajao, rekavši da je bio zaslepljen ideološkom mržnjom.
    Slovenačka komisija je uspela za poslednjih nekoliko godina da otkopa više od 20 masovnih grobnica. Grobnice se još otkrivaju, pa je tako aprila ove godine otkopan „Barbara rov“, koji je kako se procenjuje za sada najveća masovna grobnica u Sloveniji sa 12.000 žrtava. Najviše Srba i Crnogoraca ubijeno je i bačeno u jamu kod Kočevog roga. Ta jama još nije otkopana i procenjuje se da u njoj može da bude čak i 20.000 žrtava. Kod Zidanog Mosta streljani su i pokopani Crnogorci, pripadnici Kraljevske jugoslovenske vojske u otadžbini, ali i veći broj sveštenika Srpske pravoslavne crkve iz Crne Gore.

    Slab učinak u Zagrebu
    Istoričar Cvetković kaže da put kojim su krenuli Slovenci sa formiranjem tima stručnjaka koji su na objektivan način posvetili problemu partizanskih zločina treba da bude put kojim i Srbija treba da krene. On napominje da se i u Hrvtskoj ozbiljno bave istrživanjem zločina partizana. Tako je otkrivena depeša Aleksandra Rankovića, koja potvrđuje nameru najvišeg rukovodstva NOB da se masovno streljaju svi „narodni neprijatelji“.
    - Vaš rad u Zagrebu je nezadovoljavajući. Za 10 dana u oslobođenom Zagrebu streljano je samo 200 bandita. Iznenađuje nas ova neodlučnost u čišćenju Zagreba od zlikovaca. Radite suprotno od naših naređenja jer smo rekli da radite brzo i energično i da sve svršite u prvim danima.
    За землю родную не на жизнь а на смерть
    Воевал с врагами Володимир князь
    Многая лета
    Многая лета
    Многая лета
    Русской земле

  11. #11

    Odgovor: Sučeljavanje sa zločinima

    Citat Luctor kaže: Pogledaj poruku
    Какав четник? О чему причаш? Позивао си се на други светски рат и злочине над немачким цивилима. Већ сам рекао да првенствену одговорност и суочавање са тим злочинима треба да носе симпатизери и баштиници НОП-а и Јосипа Броза, јер су исти те злочине починили.

    Колико ја знам 99% људи је овде свесно да су Немци протеривани, осим оних који су већину живота провели испод камена.
    "99% људи је овде свесно да су Немци протеривани"
    Ali nisu svesni da su istrebljivani.
    Ljudi misle da su oni sami pobegli pred Crvenom armijom, ili da je neko dosao i naredio im da se spakuju i sproveo ih do granice.

    Ovde ne govorim o ideologiji, ono sto me zgrazava to sta je jedan covek sposoban da uradi drugom, bez obzira na naciju, ideologiju. Isto tako i cinjenica da se to ignorise, sakriva, omalovazava. A ja sam iz Banata, i normalno je da me se dotice. Ako nista, onda zato sto svaki dan prolazim pored nekadasnjeg logora, gledam kako se deca igraju na masovnim grobnicama i neznajuci sta je ispod njih.
    Stvoriću svoj mali raj i u njega primiti one koji su mi već u srcu.

  12. #12

    Odgovor: Sučeljavanje sa zločinima

    Evo, da se javim i ja. Pozdravljam vas sve.
    Hvala ti Sunny za tekstove.

    Teško je razumeti ovo, slažem se: bilo je zabranjeno ne samo pričati o pretrpljenoj nepravdi, nego i sećati se nje. Očevici sad posle 65 godina sa strepnjom govore o tome i traže da im se ime ne spominje. Zabranjeno je bilo sećati se.

    Da, oformljena je komisija za istraživanje zločina počinjenih 1944/45-e. I oni su dosad našli i imenovali više od 20000 žrtava. Međutim, početkom 2011-e godine kad su trebali istražiti i Vojvodinu, objavili su da nemaju para za daljnja istraživanja. No, vidim da su ažurirali sajt:

    Nešto bih još primetio: kako su se iživljavali i ubijali u Čurugu i Rogensdorfu isto su radili i Kragujevcu, Nišu, Beogradu. Sa svima.
    Ko rano poludi, ceo vek mu u veselju prođe!

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